Rethinking My Stand On Iraq.
Somewhere in my blog wandering last week, I saw a post about how there are basically four types of people in the U.S. I tried to find it again this morning because it really made me think about my stand on the War in Iraq, but sadly I was unsuccessful. I’m over 30 now and the brain is the first thing to go, you know. 
Anyway, the four types of people in the U.S.:
- Supported the Invasion of Iraq and think we should finish the job.
- Supported the Invasion of Iraq but feel we should pull out now.
- Didn’t support the Invasion of Iraq and feel we should pull out now.
- Didn’t support the Invasion of Iraq but feel we should finish the job.
I actually think there’s a fifth type of person who basically doesn’t care, but we won’t talk about them.
Anyway, most people basically consider how they feel about what’s going on in Iraq now and how they felt about the Invasion of Iraq as one big package and they can’t separate the two emotionally or mentally. The fact is that they are two separate things to consider despite the fact that the the latter is dependent on the fact that we invaded in the first place.
So, how do I feel about it?
O.K. It’s no secret that I fall into either 3 or 4 in the list. I’ve been very open and honest in blogland about how I feel about the US Invasion of Iraq. I thought it was wrong from the beginning. I never once said to myself “Hmmm…maybe invading Iraq is the right answer…” And I’m angry about the whole thing. I’m angry about how it came about, I’m angry that people followed the Administration so blindly, and I’m angry that it appears that the information that led us to war was either faulty or fabricated (depending on what you want to believe or deny). In my mind, invading Iraq was akin to an act of terrorism on our part, but again, that’s my opinion and as an American, I’m entitled to it.
However, if I separate that anger out from the situation the U.S. is in today?
Well, I feel that it’s our duty to do the right thing. We created the mess and we need to clean it up. We need to make sure they establish a government and are not in Civil War and if that means it’s an Islamic Republic because that’s what the people want…well, I’ll be upset because of women’s rights and religious persecution but if that is what Iraq wants then they deserve the government they want.
I admit, I’ve been angry about the money spent in Iraq when our schools, fire departments, police departments, and other social services are underfunded. However, I understand that it’s going to take money to fix the mess we made. However, I would like to see an accounting of where that money is going and how it’s being spent. We need to repair what we damaged and we need to do it right. We don’t need to leave the country devestated because of our actions.
And we need to stop the political games and start holding our government accountable to make sure that everything is done right. No more scandals and questionable activities. No more mistruths or propoganda or rhetoric. No more games or lies. Stop arguing about who’s right and who’s wrong and whether or not we should have invaded in the first place. We cannot change the past. We’re there. We’ve made a mess. The only thing we can change is the future.
Do. The. Job. Right. And get out.
tags: politics, George W. Bush, Iraq
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on August 27, 2005 at 3:38 pm
Big Dog said:
I guess we made such a mess that we need to clean up. It was after all us that set all the oil wells on fire causing all kinds of trouble. People in Iraq were living in an Oasis and they all had vitgins feeding them grapes and fanning them with fig leaves. There was so much electricity and free flowing, clean water that they could provide it to the world. They were growing crops and feeding everyone and all the people were in such great shape.
Oh wait, only one guy and a few of his cronies had that. Palaces where they could feed children to tigers for entertainment and then bring in a few local chicks for a good old fashioned gang rape. Maybe bring in some guy who said the wrong thing and hack him to pieces and send him back to his wife and kids.
I can see how WE messed it all up and need to rebuild it. That country was untouched until we showed up. Hell 8 years of war with Iran did not cause any problems because problems only occur when the US shows up.
And just so you know, we are building schools and hospitals and all kinds of other things THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE BEFORE or had very little of.
I personally wish we would have left Iraq alone and then if they sold stuff to bad guys or used it themselves on us we could just tell everyone whining to shut up. We should have ignored them like we ignored all the other terrorist states for the last 20 years and nothing came of that.
If we pull out then we will have let the bad guys win and we will be attacked and attacked a lot. They will know we do not have the will to finish a fight and they will attack. I would rather fight them there but if they come here I am prepared to fight. I am worried that I would have to wade through all the blame America first crowd trying not to hurt the terrorists self esteem, to kill the bad guys. Hell, I guess I could just shoot my way through the crowd…
on August 27, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Big Dog said:
BTW, you are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is, just like Pat Robertson….
on August 27, 2005 at 3:59 pm
n. mallory said:
Actually Iraq was one of the few Middle Eastern countries that had secular schools with boys and girls in attendance and supposedly until we destroyed them, quite a number of good hospitals and schools comparitively.
And you are entitled to your own misguided opinion no matter how wrong you are.
on August 27, 2005 at 4:04 pm
n. mallory said:
By the way, you seem to be a bit wound up today; considering the fact, that I wrote this post to point out that I agree we shouldn’t pull out now, I don’t think I deserved the sarcastic anger you dumped on me.
on August 27, 2005 at 8:19 pm
Big Dog said:
That was not intended to be sarcastic anger aimed at you. I usually save that for Adam. It was intended to attack this idea that the US is the bad guy responsible for all the bad things in Iraq. You said we should not pull out and then went on a tirade as to why the US is responsible for it all.
They had schools but only for those deemed worthy of attendance. The infrastructure was very weak and the oil fields in disrepair. Hussein spent all the money on himself. That country has had problems for a long time. We really are rebuilding it and a lot of the damage WE DID NOT do.
on August 27, 2005 at 8:40 pm
n. mallory said:
I’ve never said that the U.S. or the Bush Administration was the root of all evil. However, the U.S. has done it’s share of damage over there and our mere presence there has opened a large can of worms and that is why I feel we can’t leave until we’ve done our best to clean up our mess.
I’ll never say that Sadaam was a good guy. I agree that the man was the worst kind of leader. He did his share of destroying the environment too, not to mention slaughtering his own people. Iraq obviously wasn’t a Utopia, but I’ll never agree that we should have invaded when and how we did. What sort of precendent does it set for us? Are we the world’s police? Should we be? If we are, what about the other leaders who have committed or tolerated human rights autrocities?
I guess that line of thinking leads to another can of worms.
Anyway, the point is that we need to finish the job; we need to do right by Iraq. It’s our responsibility now.
on August 28, 2005 at 9:50 am
shpx.ohfu said:
“Big Dog” is a moral relativist. His point is that the terrible things happening during the US occupation are OK because other bad things happened before.
He recites the usual laundry list of right wing fantasyland justifications without ever addressing reality. The mythical “they” runs all through his comment. If we pull out then we will have let the bad guys win and we will be attacked and attacked a lot. They will know we do not have the will to finish a fight and they will attack. I would rather fight them there but if they come here I am prepared to fight.
Who is “they?” Who are the cartoonishly characterized “bad guys?” Certainly not the nation of Iraq, which did not attack us and which has no WND. How is a ground based war and occupation of Iraq even remotely connected to fighting a diffuse terrorist network?
More importantly, how do you win a war for which your hero has already declared “mission accomplished?” We already won, remember? The phony flight suit on the carrier with the banner, ready for the photo op so that credulous sheeple would cheer?
Building schools was not the objective of Bush’s invasion. Dog, please show me the transcript where Bush convinced the US to invade Iraq so we could build schools.
The explicit rationale was the imminent threat posed by Iraqi WMDs, and Cheney said he knew where they were. When that was all revealed to be lies, or in the RNC best case, incompetence, it became about spreading democracy, as if invading and occupying another country is now or has ever been the way democracy comes about.
Now that the Iranian based fundamentalist islamic state of Iraq is taking shape, that talking point has been dropped too, and Dog and the other Kool Aid kids are only left with the schools.
Here are the facts, beyond the loss of life and the wasted tax dollars:
dog, since your big focus is on schools, lets see what those facts are: UNICEF estimates that more than 200 schools were destroyed in the conflict and thousands more were looted in the chaos following the US invasion and occupation. The State Department reported on September 15th that “Significant obstacles remain in maintaining security for civilian/military reconstruction, logistical
support and distribution for donations, equipment, textbooks and supplies.”
Also, let’s see what the 200 billion wasted on this war could have done for people in the US: The $151.1 billion expenditure for the war through this year [2004] could have paid for: close to 23 million housing vouchers; health care for over 27 million uninsured Americans; salaries for nearly 3 million elementary school teachers; 678,200 new fire engines; over 20 million Head Start slots for children; or health care coverage for 82 million children.
And by the way, all those nice schools my tax dollars built in Mosul and Fallujah are empty: Murder, rape, and kidnapping have skyrocketed since March 2003, forcing Iraqi children to stay home from school and women to stay off the streets at night. Violent deaths rose from an average of 14 per month in 2002 to 357 per month in 2003.
What’s the point of school anyway: Iraqi joblessness doubled from 30 percent before the war to 60 percent in the summer of 2003.
How about the war on terra? Not so good, either: Terrorism is increasing: According to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, al Qaeda’s membership is now at 18,000, with 1,000 active in Iraq. The State Department’s 2003 “Patterns of Global Terrorism,” documented 625 deaths and 3,646 injuries due to terrorist attacks in 2003. The report acknowledged that “significant incidents,” increased from 60 percent of total attacks in 2002 to 84 percent in 2003.
How about the peopel Bush is using in his war? The troops are not being supported: About 64 percent of the more than 7,000 U.S. soldiers injured in Iraq received wounds that prevented them from returning to duty. One trend has been an increase in amputees, the result of improved body armor that protects vital organs but not extremities. As in previous wars, many soldiers are likely to have received ailments that will not be detected for years to come. The Veterans Administration healthcare system is not prepared for the swelling number of claims. In May, the House of Representatives approved funding for FY 2005 that is $2.6 billion less than needed, according to veterans’ groups.
On and on it goes, but doggie would rather love the republican party and its lies rather than face reality.
Lastly, doggie says
I am prepared to fight. Why wait? Enlist now.
on August 28, 2005 at 5:10 pm
n. mallory said:
shpx.ohfu: Do you have a blog? I’d be very interested in reading it if you do.
on August 28, 2005 at 11:30 pm
Big Dog said:
shpx.ohfu,
You should do your homework my little friend. Your last statement why wait, enlist now. I enlisted in 1980, long before many of the war protestors made it through seminal vesicles.
The they, in case you are unable to keep up, are the terrorists who have been attacking us for over 20 years while you and those like you allowed it.
And yes significant obstacles remain. We call them liberals. If you guys would get out of the way and stop making things harder by supporting the enemy, perhaps we could get the total mission accomplished.
For anyone who has sense, the Mission Accomplished banner was for the mission of the carrier. It was blown out of proportion by the media.
I do not use schools because of “lies” or anything else. I merely point out that these points seem left out when you all bash America. There were WMD and only a fool thinks they were gone all these years. I have said before that if you can bury 20 fighter jets in the sand it would not be hard to bury WMD. Every intelligence agency in the World said they were there so I guess they lied or were incompetent.
I enlisted and retired after 24 years of service. I walked the walk and would gladly go. Can you say the same or are you just a lot of mouth?
on August 29, 2005 at 3:30 am
Surfside said:
Wow, shpx.ohfu! Seems like you are intimately acquainted with Kool Aid drinking and “sheeple.” Perhpaps you might try some less “biased” sources, other than Al Jazeera and the BBC, when quoting facts and figures.
In case you have forgotten (as it seems many of your ilk have), Bush/Cheney was not the only one who thought Iraq had WMDs. The UN believed the WMDs were there — which is why there were sanctions and inspectors ready to go back into the country. And, virtually the entire Congress read the same intelligence the President read and voted him authorization for military action. In case you missed it, that included most of the Dems too.
Have you read the Butler Report? You can download it on line. Let me help you out. On page 121-122, it tells us that Saddam/Iraq did indeed contact both Niger and the DRC in 1999 to purchase yellow cake uranium (contrary to the bogus Wilson report). An agreement for sale was reached but the investigation could not confirm an acutal transfer. This was a clear and major violation of our cease-fire agreement with Saddam and his agreements with the UN. For the record, it also constitutes WMD. And, we know from the Butler Report that, in 1998, UNSCOM found traces of VX gas on missles they were inspecting.
In case you were unaware, President Clinton was also preparing for a war with Iraq at least as early as 1997. He and his administration believed Saddam had WMDs and were a threat. This is also in the Butler Report.
We also now know from the Oil-for-Food investigation that Saddam was important illegal arms and military night vision gear quicker than fleas can jump on a sleeping camel.
“Bush lied.” Stop the parrot imitation. French, German, Russian and Israeli intelligence all supported our own intelligence that there were WMDs in Iraq. Argue the last country, if you care to, but the first three would certainly not “lie” to support Bush.
Point in fact, the war with Saddam was over when Bush stood on the carrier’s deck. We had eradicated Saddam and his regime, which was the purpose for the incursion. We are now fighting a secondary war with terrorists — which happen to be linked to the same ones responsible for Kobar Towers, the 1st World Trade Center bombing, the USS Cole boming and 9/11, to mention only a few. Like it or not, the more terrorists we kill in Iraq and the more we destroy their resources, the safer we are in America. It’s a lure and destroy mission now. The unfortunate part is that the innocent Iraqi men, women and children have become victims in droves. These evil (yes, evil) terrorist will kill anyone just to stop a democratic Iraq.
And, there is now irrefutable evidence that Saddam supported various arms of Al Qaida. He had connections directly to UBL, aired anti-Saudi family commercials on behalf of UBL and allowed training facilities within his borders. He also allowed Zarqawi to be treated at a Baghdad hospital following his injury during the Afghan incursion. (per the Butler report and the 9/11 Commission Report)
Do you even realize why schools were destroyed during the war. . . and to this day? It’s because Saddam’s army and then the insurgents use/used these schools as weapons cache — knowing we would be less likely to search them initially and reticent to destroy them. Perhaps before you start spewing data, you might consider why these things are so. Our troops did not blow up schools. To infer such is ludicrous.
It must be nice and easy to blame everything on the “bad” Republicans. Yeah, none of this had anything to do with the UN, the Oil-for-Food scandal, the intelligence of four Security Council members, al Qaida or Saddam. Here’s a question for you: If Saddam truly had destroyed his WMDs, why didn’t he just let the UN inspectors back in and confirm this info? There are only two intelligent answers to that question. One, he still had them and was hiding them in his counrty or abroad. Two, he destroyed them but wanted to continue abusing the Oil-for-Food scandal so he could smuggle in counterband under the guise of food and medical supplies. In doing so, he was starving his own people.
FYI, next time you want to roll with data, provide some references/links. It’s a courtesy your readers.
on August 29, 2005 at 8:47 am
n. mallory said:
That’s rather hypocritical isn’t it? After all, you guys seem to blame everyone but the Republicans. It seems that in your eyes the Republicans are more innocent than Jesus. They’ve never done anything wrong, never made a mistake, etc…but the U.N., the Dems, all the other countries in the world that don’t agree with what you want to believe are evil and the villains and have never done a good thing for the country or mankind.
It must make it easier for you to sleep at night thinking that way.
The truth is that everyone shares the blame. The state of the country, Iraq, and the world is a result of everything humankind has done despite the party, organization, country, or ethnicity.
It seems to me that the Republicans are responsible for 12 of those 20 years.
on August 29, 2005 at 1:31 pm
Surfside said:
I blame the Republicans for the things they should be blamed (Iraq not being one of those), like not finishing the job in Iraq after the original military action. It was their fault we had to endure 8 embarassing years of the Bill Clinton administration. They should have railroaded Ginsburg the way the Dems are trying to railroad Roberts — who, BTW, isn’t nearly as contraversial as Ginsburg. I blame the seven Repulbicans that caved to the middle in this “Gang of Fourteen.” Originally, I was for this compromise, hoping it would allow for the true business of the country to continue. Now, I can see that it know is only used as a threat/tool by the Dems. They are trying to find twist anything Roberts has ever done to make him “extreme” or “undesirable” — trying to justify a potential filibuster.
Everything I put in my comment is the truth and verifiable. Yes, it makes it easier for me to sleep at night when the spin is removed. I’m tired of the Libs “forgetting” the facts and skewing their argument into an eternal anti-Bush mantra. I wonder how they sleep at night. For instance, shpx.ohfu qoted a 2003 unemployment figure — which was a May 2003 figure — shortly after the major fighting had ended. What he/she failed to say was that before the year was out, unemployment was close to that of pre-war figures and has improved and surpassed pre-war figures.
BTW, shpx.ohfu, are you a Code Pink member? Your comment sounds like their talking points. So, N Mallory, if you want to hear more of this warped argument, trekk on over to the Code Pink web site.
on August 29, 2005 at 5:51 pm
n. mallory said:
It amazes me that you don’t see the spin in your own thinking. At least I recognize that I can be biased. I’m tired of both Libs and Right-wingers and Independents “forgetting” or worse “overlooking” the facts and skewing the argument into an eternal anti-whatever mantra. Not everything you say is actually verifiable by the way. Quite a bit of it is called under question and it seems like other people interpret the same information in a completely different way. That’s not to say it’s not necessarily true, but it doesn’t hurt to question the “facts” you’ve been told and wonder about what “facts” have been left out.
By the way, I don’t buy the improvement in employment by the end of 2003, but maybe it’s because I’m biased and that’s when I lost my job to outsourcing. One month later, another one of my IT friends lost his job in IT. In fact, from Fall of 2001 to December of 2004, most of my IT friends had lost their jobs and been unemployed between 3 months and 18 months. One IT friend lost 3 jobs as two went out of business and one outsourced. But Bush doesn’t think we should be concerned about outsourcing…
on August 29, 2005 at 9:14 pm
Big Dog said:
Perhaps you should look at the reasons companies outsource. You can start with Traza Kerry because Heinz outsources more than 50% of its business. This from the wife or the guy who said Bush outsourced all the jobs.
Republicans were in charge for 12 of the 20. I am in error, the terrorist attacks go back to the Carter administration when he allowed Iran to take hostages and then became impotent. Reagan however, bombed hell out of Libya for its terrorism. We have not heard from them again except to surrender their WMD, and I don’t believe a whole lot of other terrorists messed with Reagan. Bush 41, as I reacll had little trouble with them. Clinton suffered several and did nothing. Thus 9/11.
There are plenty of republicans who are to blame and there are plenty of democrats who are doing the right thing. Generally though, the left as a group is full of hypocrits who change the rules depending upon who is in power.
on August 29, 2005 at 10:07 pm
n. mallory said:
O.K. Once again, with feeling… Teresa Kerry does not own Heinz. She is not on their Board of Directors. Her only real involvement, other than collecting money, I suppose, is with the charity work that Heinz does.
In the early 90’s computer geeks were promised that computers were the career of the future. Now, they’re someone else’s careers in someone else’s countries. Yet, Bush told us in a debate last year that if we lost our jobs, we should just go back to school and get trained in a career for the future — mind you, no one is saying what that career is.
If the government didn’t reward companies for outsourcing American jobs to other countries, we wouldn’t have the problem we have. When American jobs go to other countries, then American money gets spent elsewhere and that can’t possibly help the economy. In order for Americans to spend money to help the economy, they have to make money. Trust me, my unemployment check didn’t even cover my rent and I certainly cut out all the luxuries — heck, the best diet I discovered was not being able to afford food.
Spoken like a true follower. The truth is that generally, both parties are a group of hypocrites who change the rules depending upon who is in power — Tom Delay currently comes to mind on the Republican side. It’s the nature of politics, I’m afraid.
on August 29, 2005 at 10:50 pm
Surfside said:
For the record, the unemployment figure discussion was regarding Iraq’s unemployment.
I don’t entirely disagree with you “facts” argument, N Mallory. But, at least I try to present some with relevent references from reliable sources — which is a far sight better than some. A reader can certainly weigh the reliability/efficacy on their own.
I find it disengenious to blame the Bush administration or the U.S. military for the destruction of Iraqi schools. It’s a great figure to throw out, but entirely misleading.
on August 29, 2005 at 10:51 pm
Surfside said:
BTW, I’m wondering why my Gravatar isn’t showing here? Hmmm.
on August 30, 2005 at 9:21 am
n. mallory said:
Hmmm…Well, I went in and changed the default rating to “R” for the gravatars but that doesn’t seem to have fixed it. Very peculiar. I shall continue to research it.
I appologize if I got confused on which unemployment rate you were discussing. Obviously that’s a particular touchy subject for me. Though I have to ask if it’s wrong that I was slightly happy when I heard that the building I used to work in in Jefferson Parish took on water yesterday?
on August 30, 2005 at 9:32 pm
Big Dog said:
We must remember that outsourcing is not a new thing. It has been going on for years. I don’t give a rat’s butt what Heinz has to do with the company, it outsources and she collects money from it. Instead of blaming everyone for outsourcing we need to ask why it happens. How about labor unions that demand more money for less work and menial tasks. How about requirements that employers provide benefits that handicap them. Many states mandate that they provide health insurance that has certain items in the package despite the fact that few people use them. Things like aroma therapy. Perhaps they should have base packages and people could pay more if they want other things that most do not use.
How about workers who will not work for minimum wage or take any job just to make money. Why should they when we pay taxes to support them on welfare?
There are many prewcipitating factors and Bush is not the cause though he prbably contributes to it. Remember they all contribute to the problem.
BTW, Surfside’s Gravatar is not R rated it is G. It shows OK at my site.
on August 30, 2005 at 10:13 pm
n. mallory said:
Yeah, I know his isn’t R rated, but I was trying to force it. I don’t know why his doesn’t work here. Everyone else’s appears to. I’ve glared at the plugin code, but I don’t know. Maybe I’ll delete the cache. Hmmmmm….
on August 30, 2005 at 10:14 pm
n. mallory said:
Nope. Deleting the cache didn’t work. Surfside, what about at other sites?
on August 31, 2005 at 12:50 pm
Surfside said:
Thanks for trying, N Mallory. No, it seems to happen at other sites also.
on August 31, 2005 at 1:46 pm
Surfside said:
I’m testing something. Sorry for wasting comment space.
on August 31, 2005 at 3:32 pm
n. mallory said:
NP Test away.
on August 31, 2005 at 4:24 pm
Big Dog said:
It works on my site.
on August 31, 2005 at 4:27 pm
Big Dog said:
Her Gravatar has been working for a week or so so i don’t know what it could be, unless there is some error in the email address, like it is parsed or something.
on August 31, 2005 at 5:27 pm
n. mallory said:
If you are using the gravatar plugin, then it is probably cached on your site.
on September 1, 2005 at 12:29 pm
Surfside said:
One more test, here guys.
on September 1, 2005 at 10:14 pm
n. mallory said:
We have avatar! Whoo-hoo!
on September 2, 2005 at 12:11 am
Surfside said:
Thank you — all you who helped with the Secret of the Lost Avatar. Whoo-hoo indeed. It may change, the picture I mean.
on December 1, 2005 at 3:40 pm
smith said:
thanks alot very good blog